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Post A Note > The Forum  > Open Question Week > Who's Who?
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Author Topic: Who's Who?  (Read 1042 times)
Voca
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« on: May 07, 2012, 07:49:52 PM »
Even though I feel fairly confident about punctuation and grammar I got tripped up here. This is a sentence from the opening paragraph of Richard Ellmann's biography of James Joyce:In this treatment Joyce follows the prejudices of his father, who complained that the name of Murray stank in his nostrils at the same time that he breathed a tipsy perfume from that of Joyce.
I'd like to know who's who? Because of the comma after father, does it mean James Joyce himself is doing the smelling or is it his father? And without the comma it would be Joyce's father doing the smelling--have I got it right?  Smiley  Blame it all on Donna Ippolito who got me thinking about opening sentences and first lines of works.
Voca
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lizbeth
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 08:28:54 PM »
I THINK IT IS THE FATHER
Who is doing the smelling. Sorry, am typing on my phone.
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Humi
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2012, 10:04:20 PM »
the father. 'cause he goes on to talk about the perfume that JOYCE wears. since joyce is the narrator he cant talk about himself in third person - unless he's that wierd as in 'Brad likes it!'

no offense to any Brads in here or out there bt u oughta see the progressive insurance commercial for this. no, i'm not their spokesperson. ok somebody stop me!!
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Marly
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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2012, 10:55:21 PM »
Definitely the father, with or without the comma.  Smiley
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mbj451
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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2012, 11:48:56 PM »
I don't like the sentence. I'm not comfortable with any part of it. It has to be the father.
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Marzipan
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2012, 02:48:49 AM »
It's the father doing the smelling. But here's what confuses me: "....the tipsy perfume from that of Joyce." That what? It can't be the perfume, or "Joyce" would have to be "Joyce's". Whatever "that" is, it would have to be the thing from which the perfume is emanating, or from whence it came. "....the tipsy perfume from that of Joyce." Rrrgh....
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Marzipan
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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2012, 02:50:59 AM »
K, I think I got it. It's the name, right? Then who is the "he" in the last clause who doesn't like the name of Joyce? The father, or Joyce himself? I'll understand one of these days :-D
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Voca
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« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2012, 08:15:28 PM »
No, ladies, with all due respect, I maintain it is the son Joyce doing the action. For it to mean the father, the comma must be removed.

But I agree with MBJ, I don't like the sentence. I quoted that one sentence verbatim. But if you had the whole passage you'd see the father has prejudice against his wife's family name, "Murray", but in the sentence he, or his son, claims to be able to smell the Joyce smell and the Murray smell at the same time. (An impossibility, I think.) But the smells are metaphors, of course. At any rate, it's still a confusing sentence structure.
(Author beware!)
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MaryR
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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2012, 09:01:29 PM »
It is hard to tell exactly what the author intended here.  You can make a case for it being either father or son.    This is an issue that many novice writers don't understand;  the more convoluted you make your prose, the more chances there are that readers will not understand the meaning you are trying to convey.  Why make things difficult for your readers?  You see that convoluted style  in some literary authors, and some boast about making it hard for their readers,  but it always makes me shrug.  What's the point?  Why obscure your meaning?  Words can be beautiful in many forms and combinations.

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Marzipan
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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2012, 03:44:51 AM »
Boast about being confusing? LOL Seems silly to me :-P "Look everyone, I'm so smart that no one understands what I want to say...."
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lizbeth
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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2012, 06:10:28 AM »
Definitely the father. I call it "highbrow literature." 
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spellbound
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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2012, 09:31:04 AM »
I know an author whose whole purpose is to leave the reader unsure of the meaning. He says if the reader understands what he wrote, then he didn't do his job.
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Brandon
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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2012, 09:51:56 AM »
If the reader understands what I wrote, I've done my job.  Of course, I write a lot of how to's, so I guess that's kind of the point.  Other than in a mystery, I don't see a reason to confuse the reader.
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MaryR
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2012, 12:10:18 AM »
I agree with you Brandon.  I WANT my readers to totally engage with what I write.  But there are those who really do seem to look down on their readers, to feel that they're above them.  I have to say that most of these have written in the literary genre, but not all.   Wink

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Brandon
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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2012, 09:30:05 AM »
Well, most people are beneath me, but I feel it's my duty to help the poor, lost rabble... show them the way so to speak.  Now, where is my tea?  Hang on, I must go ring the bell.  Jarvis, where is my tea?  Must go find my tea.  Pip pip... Grin
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